Adriana
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Who We Are Inside, our Cupid podcast. Today, we have Dr. Siddharth Kannan with us. He was born in India, but grew up playing basketball, and daydreaming about being an NBA basketball player in Toronto, Canada, since the age of three. He went back to India to acquire a bachelor's in dental surgery, a BDS degree, and later on, a wife. Actually, his wife, Dr. Shelby, who I am forced to adore, is a general dentist in Ohio. Later, in 2018, he graduated with a doctorate in dental medicine, a DMD, from the University of Pittsburgh School of Dental Medicine. After graduating from dental school, he pursued a service-based pediatric dental fellowship at the Ohio State College of Dentistry Nationwide Children's Hospital. He commenced practicing general dentistry for the next three years, with a primary focus on treating children and adolescents, which led him to decide to specialize in the field of pediatric dentistry. He obtained his pediatric dental specialization from his alma mater, the University of Pittsburgh School of Dental Medicine, in 2024. In fact, today is his last day of his residence training. Congratulations! Dr. Sid, as his pediatric patients call him affectionately, has several interests. His interests are playing sports, watching sports, talking about sports, and running 26-mile marathons. His favorite basketball player is Lebron James, which is fitting as his new home is Akron, Ohio, and he enjoys trying new restaurants, especially Indian and breakfast diners, and he's very, very excited to welcome a new Golden Retriever puppy named Sheldon Cooper. So, welcome Sid. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you today.

Sid
Thank you.

Karthik
Welcome, Dr. Kannan. Do you like to go by Dr. Kannan and Sid?

Sid
Sid's fine.

Karthik
Sid, great. Thanks for being with us today. New Golden Retriever puppy, that's got to be exciting.

Sid
Yes, it is. He's six weeks old right now.

Karthik
Oh, wow.

Sid
So, we're waiting. We'll get him on July 7th.

Karthik
Very cool.

Sid
My wife is excited. Yeah. So, yeah, it's gonna be nice.

Karthik
Cool. So, to start off with, tell us a little bit about what that transition was like from Toronto to India to back to the United States. What stood out to you the most?

Sid
So, my perception of what it was in Canada, and he moved in 1994, and he got his dental license in 1997, and he's been practicing since then. So, like the idea of becoming a dentist was always kind of ingrained in me, and when we came to 11th and 12th grade to decide what to do, I was a good student in high school. I struggled a little bit in middle school, but like in high school, I was a good student, and like I applied for like undergrad bachelor of science degrees at McMaster, at Western Ontario, University of Toronto, and I got into all those programs. Western gave me the highest scholarship, which was about a 50% scholarship. I accepted Western, and I paid, my dad paid the deposit for the dorms, and at the time, the year before in 11th grade, I went to India, and he set me up with a few of his friends from different specialties, and also in medicine as well to kind of decide what his desire was for me to be a physician actually, and I didn't know what I wanted. So, what I did was I went around, and I saw a couple of people. The first one I shadowed was a cardiac anesthesiologist, and he came out after like a 10-hour case, and he's like, if you like your life, you love yourself, don't do this, and then as I heard, that's out of the question, and then the next one I met was a periodontist, and he seemed very jovial and enjoyed his life and had a nice practice, and he said it's a good profession. It's an amalgamation between business and science, and he's like, it's a good choice, and he was the man that I stayed with his family. He was very kind, and he's a guy that went to school with my dad and he was a cool dude, and I said, okay, maybe this is cool. Shadowed an orthodontist as well, thought it was cool, so I thought, okay, maybe dentistry is a better path than medicine, but I still was fixated on the fact of like, let me do the traditional four-year undergrad and then apply to dental school, but as the days came closer, my father always wanted to send me to India, but then towards the end, I think he had a little bit of like formal kind of deal. He said, you'll be fine to study here, but I don't know for what reason, but I decided I wanted to go, and I know today that I just want to escape. I just wanted to go as far as I could like most of the kids in high school, like away from their parents, and I thought it would be a cool experience, and so I decided to do that, but when I went to India, everything was so radically different, so we'd visit a lot during summer holidays, but it's not like staying there full-time, so that was kind of how it started, yeah.

Karthik
And in India, I know you spoke a lot about the adjustments and things like that. I understand that you had a lot of challenges as well. How did you overcome some of those challenges that you faced?

Sid
So the first one, let me tell you this, so when I went to college, right, they told me college was going to start three weeks into August, so we got there like right before the beginning of August. My mother and I went, and I paid the deposit, and they gave me like my ID card and all that, and we paid the tuition for the first year, and my parents wanted me to stay. They call it hostels. They're not dorms, right, so I had to stay in the hostel, and I'm sure you can relate to this. When I start talking, you're going to start shaking your head, and so what happened was there were six guys in my class, and I said, well, there were six guys that were signed up to be in the hostel. There were 17 guys in my class as a whole. There was 82 girls, and so that was the first thing, and then what happened was we were supposed to get a roommate, and since I was the first guy that came there, they gave me the choice of who I wanted to choose, and my roommate studied in a Tamil medium school. English was not his first language, but everything was in English. I said, oh man, I knew our language, but I didn't realize that like I'm going to be stuck with a guy from like a village. That's what happened actually, and so I decided to be with this guy, and that's how it started. He was a nice roommate, but like there was a little bit of language barrier, and he had a little bit of resistance learning English because it was difficult, and I think he felt intimidated, but my Tamil was not that good, but I managed. I used to watch a lot of movies. I managed. The first night, right, we stayed in the hostel, and we were sleeping at 11 o'clock at night. Some guy, some dude came banging on the door. Well, I didn't know who it was, so somebody was banging on the door. He had a habit of talking to his girlfriend from high school, and he put his headphones in, so this was like 2009, so we had Nokia phones, and we had like nothing. There's like iPhone 3G was out at the time for people as a reference of how long it's been. Yeah, they had Nokia. He had a Nokia. I had a Nokia N72, and you would have to plug it in, and then he listened to his music. He was passed out. He didn't hear anything. I heard the knocking, and he said, hey, do you want to check because usually sometimes they knock once they leave, and this guy kept banging on the door, and I opened the door, and this guy was like couldn't even stand up, and he was like, oh, your first year, and I said yes, and then he dragged my collar shirt, collar, and then he just dragged me downstairs. I didn't know. I was like, dude, who are you, man, and then I went downstairs, and they opened this door, and this combustion of smoke was coming out of the door. It was a combustion of smoke, right, and against the wall, four of my other, the other, we call them hostages, you know, the other hostages were standing against the wall, and I said, wow, it's like in the movie, and so they were right about this because I've watched a lot of movies, not specifically for this, but just over the last couple of years. I said, I've seen this thing in like medical profession, dental profession, like any health science profession. This was like this ragging thing, hazing, ragging. They call it ragging. They're hazing. They call it here fraternity kind of deal, and I saw these guys, and they're all standing in their underpants against the wall, and they said, it's your turn. I said, no, I'm not going to do that. They said, well, I mean, trust me, you're not going to want to, you know, play around with this, so I did that too. They eventually woke up the sleeping guy as well because the door was open. Now, it's time to get up. They woke him up. They brought him down. He was half asleep. I think that he thought it was a dream. You know, he was walking in his dream, and we stood there. I think it was around 11 o'clock till 3 a. m. Yes, till 3 o'clock, and that's how we started, and you would think that went on for six months. Absolutely. Yeah. Every night. Every night, and I said, hey, I have an exam tomorrow. They said, we don't care. Yeah, and so it was on a three level, three different levels, emotional, physical, because there's sometimes we got pocketbooks of money, so they would take money from us, and they would sometimes emotionally, like sometimes it would be fun too, like we'd sing songs, or they'll make us do dumb stuff, but I had a routine every morning, so about two weeks in, I was humbled, okay, so I'd get up at 6 a. m. , and there would be seniors, so we stayed on the fourth floor, and that was all first year, some second years, and then the interns, as you become more senior, you move down the floor, so you're closer to the canteen, because the canteen was on the ground floor, and a lot of people move out too. You don't have to stay there. Some of the guys decide because it's comfortable, it's on campus, but as you, and then the PG's, which is the residence, some residents also stay there. They usually stay on the ground floor. They get first dibs for everything, and we had a warden who was a prosthodontist, and but he was just like a warden, but he basically, they gave him free accommodation. He was in charge if you needed anything, and if you had to go out for the camp, go to my aunt's house. My aunt lives there, so we thought about complaining to him, and he's like, dude, he's like, I know what's going on, and I don't really have any control. You can complain to the university if you want, but basically what happened was this is kind of how it went, so my routine was I get up at 6 a. m. , and then I have to on the hot water for two of the guys, and they would have a heater, and you put the hot water there, so I'll do that. I would run to the local store around the corner. There's a tea shop. I have to buy four different guys cigarettes in the morning, different brands. Each guy smokes a different brand, and then the interns, the health surgeons, so you'd get that, and you would leave it outside their door with their coffee. It was wild. I am not, you can't make this stuff up. Absolutely. No, I can't make it up because it's so, I envision it right now. I can envision. I remember myself in the first six months. I dropped 50 pounds by doing nothing, by just running around after people, and on top of that, like the kids here say it's hard. Oh, my God, man, and like you come. Imagine dental students here if it was like that. These kids like imagine, just imagine, and but that's how it was, and but this was the trade-off, so my dad didn't know the dean of the school, and these guys were aware of it and didn't care. No. They were relentless, and but they told me, they told me one thing. They said, hey, listen, if you follow directions, which I don't like to do, they said, you just do what we say, and second year, you'll be a king. You can do anything you want. Nobody's going to call you for anything, but my intentions were never to be like that, and as every good-hearted person, you know, I was like, I'm never going to be like, I'll do what these guys say, but I'm not going to be like them, but there was one night about six or seven months in that changed everything, and there was a guy that was inebriated, and he had called me, and I really didn't do anything of my own mistake, but it was just, he was in a bad head space, and he had just hit me, and not a lot, but I mean, he did, and then that kind of like, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna get my money back, and so in second year and third year, I got worse, and then by the end of, by the end of the internship, around the end of the internship, I was 10 times worse than these guys, and we had around eight guys, and we ran the whole university. Yeah, yes, yes, yeah, we're little hoodlums, yeah, and I did it out of my house, I didn't do it, I did not do it in the hostel, I didn't stay in the hostel, we were out by the first year, me and two other guys, that one's an oral surgeon now in Delhi, and the other one's an orthodontist in Chennai, yeah, and we, we lived together before, until my accident happened, but by the end of it, I had a three-bedroom house, and I would almost rag guys every night, and I got all my money back,

Karthik
Yeah, no, I fully believe it, we would hide for the first six months, we would try to hide as much as possible to never be seen.

Sid
It's not bad, it's, it's not that way anymore.

Adriana
So do they shave your heads, because in some countries that's what they do, right,

Sid
They didn't, oh yeah, he didn't, we didn't get our head shaved, but sometimes they would shave your like beard, if you had a beard, or like stuff like that, they would make you like go, and like fun little stuff is they would make you like go, and like buy flowers, and give it to like a senior girl, and stuff like that, and they'll make you do some crazy stuff.

Karthik
They, they used to call it the freshy cut, yeah, that's what they used to call it back in our, in Manipal, where I went as well, it's, it's to identify who's, who's a freshman, yeah, that's the main basis behind having them shave their head, is because you know from far who the freshman is,

Sid
And so the other thing was, they also had a dental salute, so you have to learn the salute, and anywhere you see these guys in college, you would have to salute them, yeah, you'd, so you would stand, and you would salute them in the middle of the school, and, and they would tell you not to do it in front of faculty, and if you did it in front of faculty, you would get in trouble for that too, you had to be careful, there was no faculty around, and we had another, we had a pledge, yeah, so that was a funny thing, because my, my roommate was, was a Tamil mediums student, so he was not English, was not his first language, so they made him teach me that in Tamil, and they made me convert everything to English, and made a new pledge, the English pledge of the same thing, and it was just a bunch of swear words, and stuff like bad stuff, yeah, not good, and, and you'd have to say the pledge, and, and all the time, like when you walk in, you'd have to say the pledge, and so that's kind of like how first year went, and yeah, I think like he was, like Arte was mentioning, we would try to run away, like, like I would Saturday, we had, so school is six days a week, not five, Saturday was a half day, yeah, like he knows, eight to one, or eight to two, so I would like get my bags ready in my room, and as soon as they let me out, I would take it and run, like because my aunt lived in Chennai, I would run, and at that time, like Chennai is a totally different place now, but at that time, there was only two or three KFC in all of Chennai, so I would take a bus, and I would stop at a mall on the way, and I would eat for the whole week, I would eat at KFC, because I didn't really like the food much, it was not, obviously not like home food, and I was feeling that sickness, but you know, the interesting part, thinking back now, is that I never thought about leaving though, and then the cool part was, when I got my results in first year, first year, like our exam results, I did exceptionally well, exceptionally well, and out of the four mainstream subjects we took, which is anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, and dental anatomy, and dental materials, I had four distinctions, which means that you, anything above 80 percent, and two of the subjects, I got 90 percent, I did very well, so I never thought about leaving, and so yeah, yeah.

Adriana
Wow, so thinking back, would you do it again?

Sid
Yes, I would do it again, but I wouldn't do it in this era, I need to go back to the era, actually, when I talked to some of our seniors from back in the day, guys that graduated in the early 2000s and early 90s, they said it was like much worse, we were actually on the tail end of how it was, and interesting, because my wife, right, she went to the same school, and she was the last class that I hazed before I left, and I actually, because of my accident, I fell nine months behind, or I wouldn't have met Shobi's class, and after her class, moving forward, ragging is completely, 100 percent eliminated, it does not exist anymore, and I know that as a fact, because I'm still involved with some of our school stuff there, and I'm still involved with some faculty, and one of the chairs of our departments, I'm a good friend of his now, and he says that there's like an anti-ragging committee, and they have meetings every month with like class presidents, just like here, like there's not, we had the whole sir and ma'am thing, that doesn't exist anymore either, because you call your seniors sir and ma'am, I don't know how it was in Brazil, but that's how it was in India, that even that is almost gone, like sometimes the house surgeons, which is the senior most people, which is the fifth year, sometimes the first year students would call them sir and things like that, because they already became a doctor, but between first and second, first and third years, it was not, it doesn't exist anymore, yeah, oh wow, yeah, but we had the conviviality, yeah, and I wouldn't change it, even as painful as the experience was, coming through it, and like being close with these guys, and remembering those things was really cool.

Karthik
Yeah, that's what I was going to touch on next as well, from a, it annoys me as much as I say it even now, but a lot of people back then used to say, oh it builds character, yes, you know, you become a stronger person, and you shouldn't have to go through that to become a stronger person, but it's not wrong, you do become a stronger person, having faced that adversity, so my question to you is, if you could share how, after all of, after facing all of that, and sort of going through your accident and things like that after, do you think that what you came out of, you know, the person you became, what, why do you think that is, what would you attribute it most to?

Sid
So the thing is that like, after I got into like recovery program, the, so I was thinking this whole time, so like I was excessively drinking and things like that, and I was always thinking that, like this was my problem, well I didn't realize for a long time, but I later realized right after 2018, and I've been sober now six and a half years, and thank you, thank you, and so that time I didn't realize, selfishness and self-centeredness, that's the root, it all came down from that, so we talk a lot in the program about character defects, right, and as not as in the program, just generally people talk about, how can I build character, and what are my defects, what are my assets, and what are my defects, and what can I do to change my defects to assets, right, so the opposite of selfishness would be selflessness, right, and the opposite of ego is humility, right, so those are the kind of things we evaluate, and core, the core issue was always a self-centered fear, I don't get what I want, or I'm going to lose what I have, and every single situation that I put myself into, boil down to those two things, like and then it's all, like that's the chief activator of all defects of character, self-centered fear, and for anybody, it doesn't have to be an addict, or it don't have to be any kind of that, you can be just a normal person, but if you see and evaluate it, it comes down to that, yeah.

Adriana
Yeah, so when you sent your topic that you'd like to discuss with us today, you sent me a quote about surrender, so my question about this topic is, what's the difference between surrendering and giving up?

Sid
Yeah, so the way for me, I never, the surrendering is basically like, I'm going to give in to get something out, right, I, I admission, it's a, it's a, it's a type of admission, whereas giving up is like folding the towel and calling it a day, surrendering is what I built my whole life on, because I thought surrendering was weakness, it's not, it's the exact opposite, it's surrendering, you're admitting with an admission, I have a problem, or I need help, so surrender is a cry for help, and sometimes you, if you're lucky, you meet grace, and that's what happened to me, I met grace through, not through people, I met grace, so that's what I believe it is, and like we talked about as well, that acceptance is the answer, like if I'm disturbed, it's something within me, and my spiritual axiom, that's bothered, like if I don't like somebody, it's probably something I don't like about myself, really it is, and that's what I've found out,

Karthik
It's almost a very high level of self-awareness, yes. Yeah, wow, yeah, and it's, it seems like there's a very fine line between, you know, admitting and, and giving up, like how do you, how would you say that balance is maintained?

Sid
Willingness, okay, that's the only difference, like the difference between giving up and giving in is willingness, so that's why people say, like people ask me, just generally, because, and I don't, I'm not offended by it, and I love, I love to talk about it, was like, well you've been sober so long, why do you have to still go to the meetings and stuff, right, so, and then the easiest way to explain this is that they, they tell the cucumber analogy, so once you peel a cucumber, it can't become a pickle, like you can't, you know what I mean, so they say once an alcoholic or an addict, in any, in any capacity, it could be food, drugs, alcohol, anything, like once you cross that invisible line that people talk about, you can is that people ask me, like, oh, why do you have to go so frequently, and the easiest way I, I don't tackle it, but I answer is that I drank every day, so I go every day, I need to get my medicine, yeah, and so I need to hear somebody else tell me what I'm thinking in my head, right, so that's why I go, and that's why I do that, and like they say, once an alky, always an alky, that's a very common thing they say, but I don't think people really understand what that means, so yeah, that's, that's what.

Karthik
Is there a point that it gets easier?

Sid
It's, yeah, I think of, see, that the thing that people need to understand is that the physical component, after two weeks, it's gone, like there's no physical component, it's a mind thing, it's a, it's a mental obsession, it's the threefold, okay, the physical allergy, they call it, it's like after two weeks, like it's completely gone from your system, and then there's a mental obsession and a spiritual bankruptcy, that is what gets everybody out, because eventually that's the giving in, like, oh, these things are not going well, like life will still happen, life on life's terms is still gonna happen, that I didn't understand that for a while, because especially with the residency, I was like trying to apply, and I said, hey, I'm doing everything right, but like I'm not getting what I want, again, self-centered fear, how am I gonna deal with this? And what I realized was at 18 months, I was as insane as I, I was more insane 18 months away from a drink than I was when I was drinking, because drinking was my solution, and then you take away my solution, and I don't, and I just have me and my crazy thoughts, and I was, that self-centered fear drove me to the brinks of insanity, to suicidal thoughts. Interviewing, I didn't get into pediatric dentistry residency the second time, I didn't, I didn't pass my Canadian dental board, so I couldn't go back home, the only thing I had is a dental degree here, I hadn't worked yet, because I was in the fellowship, and I went to interview for a job in Dallas, Texas, and they played for everything, they had me come out for a few days, and they said, hey, look at our offices, if you like it, if it's, and they did a lot of pediatric work, and it was my birthday, and I couldn't, like, be happy for anything, and I remember I had a sponsor in the program who passed away now, but he said, let me get this right, you're marrying a girl you said you wanted to get married to, you have a degree, which you thought you'd never get, and they're giving an amazing job, and you want to kill yourself. How does that make any sense? And when you came to me to ask for help at three weeks, all you want to do is not drink, and see how much more the ego demands. Right.

Adriana
Now, going back to the surrendering and giving up, would you say that giving up is like, it's now or never, it's a more immediate action versus surrendering that is like slowly going through the process and letting go?

Sid
Yes, absolutely. That's really cool. I haven't thought about like that, but yeah, giving up is you can give up multiple times, but I think giving up is sometimes, for some people, is the end of it, right? And it was a friend of ours, it was a close friend, he was a cop in Houston, and he had four years, and he was struggling, and he didn't speak to anybody, and the insanity got so bad, and he just went in his room and shot himself in the head. And we went to his funeral, and I sat beside his sponsor, and he didn't even know a thing, because the guy would come in the morning, and be like, how are you doing? He's like, I'm doing great. And he was just dying on the inside. So yes, exactly. But I like what you said, because surrendering, you have to, sometimes you have to surrender multiple times in a day, right? So that's why I've heard a lot of people say, you can say the serenity prayer, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference, people can say that multiple times in a day, you can also start your day over, which is also, these are all spiritual toolkits. In the spiritual toolkit, these are all little little nuggets that I carry around actively in my head. And there is the one, my favorite one, that saved me multiple times, a lot of people and even my family members and wife, is that there's a three step, there's a three step thing, doesn't need to be said. Number one, that's the first thing I think about my head, doesn't need to be said by me. And doesn't need to be said by me right now. So it could be, it could need to be said, but maybe I can say it tomorrow morning, when the other person is not as tired, and they receive it differently, things like that, I don't make any big decisions after nine o'clock at night, because my perception of everything is skewed. Yeah, I make the decision at 5am. And I follow people that are successful. And this is what they do, because they know that they could make impulsive decisions, right, and things like that. So that I really follow those three things, like, I just want to try to follow that. And the what you talked about surrender and grace, right? So I've heard this from another guy. And he said, grace, the acronym for grace is gently releasing all conscious expectations. That's grace. So that's, and I carry that because the more my expectations are of the world and its people, that it's inversely proportional to the serenity that I can carry. Because, you know, the world and its people are wrong. And that's as far as I got. And that's why I got where I was, because I carried so much resentment against the world, like this person did this to me, if this accident hadn’t happened, I wouldn't my hand wouldn't be disabled. If my dad didn't send me to India, there's not it would have happened. I was just carrying all these resentments with me, right?

Karthik
It's expectation is an interesting thing that you brought up. Because I think subconsciously, we all have expectations in all the relationships that we maintain consciously or subconsciously. So from what I'm understanding, it's expectations are one thing, but, you know, controlling your own emotions when those expectations are met is what you're referring to, correct?

Sid
Yeah. Yeah, like being able to stay sane, and like still do things because sometimes you like if I get if I get really upset or anything in the past, it really made with anxiety, and I won't be able to get out of bed. Because I just that paralyzed me almost. So when those like those expectations like I had, like, oh, I should get in then I should get in here. I deserve this, I deserve that. And then those kind of things were stopping me. And then the way that I dealt with that, or I overcame that was I realized that everything in God's time, or a higher powers time is always better than mine. Everything that I did in my own thing, my sponsor, Gene Ritter, he passed away, so I can say his full name. But he used to say one thing that really stuck with me. He said, look at your life, man, when you ran the show, you got into trouble, you got you, you're running into walls and people and places and things. He's like, why don't you just turn it over and move on? Yeah, it was the simplest thing, right? But that the message wasn't received, because I didn't know that much then. Right. But he just basically said, just look at look at your life when you're running the show. Why don't you just turn it over to Yeah. So that was easy.

Adriana
So the expectations also, I think they come from our feelings, right, the way we feel. And sometimes we cannot control our feelings. But I have come across this idea of mental toughness, that, okay, I cannot control my feelings, I can just disregard my feelings. And no matter what, I'll go ahead and do it. So you don't want to exercise, you don't want to go to the gym, you don't feel like going to the gym, you ignore that. And even though you don't want to go, you have the capacity to go and do it. So everything, if you think about that, you can overcome with your desire to go for it, right? So do you think an addict would have this capacity of mental toughness, without getting help, surrendering, surrendering, getting grace? Do you think it's possible? Or is there, like, it would take more time or it would take more effort in order to do that?

Sid
For me, it wasn't possible. Like the way it was for me was like, at least even towards the end, right? Because I was a student when I got over here. Like, I would wake up in the morning pissed at the world. And as I went through the day, it would start surmounting on me. I mean, I was the kind of person that if you looked at me wrong, I would go drink and I would blame you for my day. That's how I lived. So I don't I believe like a lot of people that are in that realm, that's what happens. And resentment is always the number one offender. It kills more people than anything else, alcoholic, addict or not. And I've seen people that in my own family, sometimes, that have so much hate and resentment towards the world, and they never pick up a drink in their life. Right. And so they did the solutions. And the solution is for anybody. It's just the way you practice it. I've seen people that practice yoga every day. And they're horrible people, just inside and out. Right. And they say that this is they're doing the life or whatever. I'm not sorry, just saying yoga, anything like this is just general, like people that work out all the time or run and anything like they do a lot of healthy things, but they're extremely unhealthy in their behavior and their their their patterns.

Karthik
Yeah, yes. Yeah. That's, that's, I fully relate to what you're saying. Only it brings me back to the times when I used to have these expectations of other people, thinking that they should do exactly what I do. And that's why I'm doing it. So for example, holding the door open, just a simple thing, right? When somebody doesn't do it, you, you learn why are they not doing it, and you get started getting resented, you know, and then I realized that I'm not doing it in expectation that somebody else will do it. I'm just doing it because it brings me happiness. And that was, that was the point when I think for me, it changed. And I didn't hold that resentment. So it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

Sid
I mean, yeah, I was the kind of person, like you said, like that I would do exactly the same thing. I would like, steal your money, and help you find your own money. Wow. That's how like, that's what I'm saying the expectation. Like, I would literally like as a kid is to fix it. Yes. Yeah. Like I would do that. And I'm like, Oh, let's go try to find it. It'll be in my pocket. Yeah. And like, it was just wild.

Karthik
A lot of us do that. You know, I think, I think we do it more than we realize, like we, some people have it, fixing things brings you happiness. So it's sort of like that feeling that it's, that's very interesting. Yeah.

Adriana
There is this, when you have a resentment, it's like in your head, like life is not fair. Right? Because you think you are the victim. Yep. And people did that to you. But that's not true. Right? It's just you are so worried about yourself. You're so self centered, that everything is about you. Right.

Sid
So the solution that I have for that, not I have, but the solution that was laid out, right, was like four things. And it's always helped me in overcoming a resentment, because still resentments happen. Now, I ain't no saint. Right. And it's still gonna happen. Life's still gonna happen. So what we do is, the first thing I do is I ask God to remove the resentment, like help me, God, I need help. Like I'm resentful at this place, person or thing. Please help me remove this resentment. Or I've made, I've made a wrong, please help me, please forgive me. Number one. The second thing I do is if I, if I need to make a, if I need to like certain things out, I'll do it immediately. I don't wait till next week. I don't wait till next month, because it starts festering around. And I'll start to spill into other relationships. Right. So if I need to make amends, I make amends right away, immediately. Right. And then what I do is I call somebody and I tell them, I don't tell them myself, but I'll tell them what happened and what I felt. And usually the other person on the other side has either been through it, is probably going to go through it. Or it's going to give me a different angle and never thought about like, for example, like, Hey, yeah, maybe they didn't, maybe you heard it wrong. Maybe that's not what it is. And then I will do the flip side and I'll just call somebody and ask them how their day was. So, and that, what that does is it gets out of yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's the remedy.

Karthik
Yes. It's really critical. And what you're pointing out is sort of that reliance on a support system around you and recognizing that, Hey, I need to rely on the support system, whatever that might be for you. So my question, I guess, is for all those listeners out there who are, who are struggling to, you know, come to the terms that, you know, they cannot handle this alone or are trying to fight the urge to not seek help. Do you have any, any advice for, for individuals that are struggling like that?

Sid
I was, I was so scared to ask for help and I didn't want to actually, because my plan was I was going, I had a bad, not a bad, like New Year's Eve, but I was just like, Oh, I just want to escape again. So I was going to find a place where I can drink comfortably and nobody's going to bother me. So I went to a party where I didn't know the people there. I just had a friend that was going and it was his cousin's house. And it was just a crazy night in the sense, just a regular, you know, New Year's Eve party kind of night. But I just was like blacking out real fast. And I remember telling him, I was like, Hey man, I think I'm an alcoholic. And he started laughing at me, not in a bad way, but he was just like, Oh yeah, you're not, you know, whatever. And I didn't think anything, but I didn't realize like before that I never had a self admission. And then I had, I came home at 3am and we came in an Uber and he lifted me and like brought me inside my parents' house and I slept. And I just remember like that in the morning, the pounding hangover was insane. And I've had hangovers before, but this was like no other. And I had this impending doom that I had this finally like showered over me like, Oh my God, like, cause they had already talked to me in June 2017 about this, like, Hey, we think your behavior is a little bit, you know, off. And I blaming the girlfriend, all that. She left, it'll be okay. Oh, they're like, okay, we're keeping an eye on you really need to sort things out. But that day, I don't know what it was, but I was like, okay, it's a would make a new resolution. My resolution was I'm going to stay away from that stuff until April, because in May we graduate. I'm like by April, I'll be all the heat will be off and I can celebrate on my birthday. And I decided I made a decision to just stay away from all that stuff and focus on school and getting through the requirements, whatever, as a senior, I came back to Pittsburgh and I didn't realize, but like, I was detoxing myself for years and years. I was drinking every day. And my liquor consumption was almost a liter every day, like a full bottle every day. And I was functioning what they say functioning, I don't know how functioning I was, but I did well in school. So nobody bothered me. Right, right. So that's what the justification that a lot of dental students could have now to our medical students, like I do well in school, because there's a lot of physicians and people in And this is a very similar thing they say, because they're smart, IQ people. And that's what kills them. The education, the knowledge is what locks them away from the power. But basically, what I was trying to say was, I came back and I made a decision. So that's three and a half months, two weeks into this, I'm sitting in the library at Hillman. And I was going insane. And I was like, what's going on? Like, I tough, I'm tough. Like willpower, I have a lot of willpower. Look what I've gone through in my life. I don't this is nothing. This is a can't beat me. But like every hour, I sat there got more and more uncomfortable. And I remember I could not see Sunday, I couldn't see Monday morning, which is Martin Luther King Day, I couldn't imagine waking up that morning seeing the sunshine without like, without having a drink in the system. And that's when I sought help. And, and I walked into the meeting for the first time on January 15. So I had 15 days of sobriety. And I'm not boasting, but they call it a one chip wonder. I walked in and stayed because most people don't do that. And again, it's grace. It's not anything I did. It's just I met the right people at the right time. And I just put in the work little by little chipping out it little by little. But I just remember my first spiritual experience was, I walked into the recovery center here early in the morning, it was 630 in the morning. And I remember I saw a sign as soon as I walked in and said, Welcome home. You know, and it's almost like, you know, we've been waiting for you to surrender. And then the second thing was I always had this guilt about my friend dying in the accident. And I was like, I always told myself, no matter what happens on May 4, they won't drink every year. And the accident happened May 4 2011. This is 2018. And every year I told myself and again, the resentments surmount, and the guilt and the shame surmount. And by 11 o'clock or 10 o'clock at night, I'm pounding the bar again saying like, How did I get here again, because my intentions were always good. I felt that I was a good person. I was just sick. And I didn't realize that. And and I, for the first time, after many, years, I sat in that meeting, and I felt one comfortable. And two, I felt the presence of something. And I believe today that is my the presence of my friend. And I heard this voice, which is my voice as the inner voice that said, You're right where you need to be just stay here, and you'll be okay. And it's going to be tough, but it's going to be okay. And I and then that helped me a lot through the through the years. Yeah.

Karthik
Wow. So yeah, that's so very profound. Yeah, I've heard I've heard from a lot of, you know, I've heard from a lot of people who were, who are addicts, or, you know, who have struggled through substance abuse and things like that, that, oh, you know, I had to hit rock bottom to to realize that that's what do you think that was your rock bottom?

Sid
My rock bottom was, I believe it could have been, what I've seen is that a lot of people come in, because of the consequences, they get a DUI, they get like, something happens, or now I see a lot of things with physicians, opioid prescribing, they get caught with that they're like, oh, mandated to go to meetings for 90 days, blah, blah, blah. Right. What I've found is that the emotional bottom people that come in, that I had a lot to lose, I had everything to lose, but I didn't lose it yet. Yeah. And what we say is yet stands for you're eligible to, I was very, I was eligible to lose it. And I came in right at the same time, that time when I was, so mine was an emotional bottom for sure. Yeah, I was, the tank was out. Yeah, I was on empty, man, I was running on empty. And the best way I can describe this in the most simple way for anybody, even a 10 year old child can understand. I, I remember that week when I was going to the meeting, I had what they describe as the aimless walk, no destination and no desire. I didn't want to be a dentist. I didn't like you, I didn't like me. And I didn't know where I was going to end up. Right. I had nothing. Right. Like, but I felt like I've done a lot in my life, but I felt that I didn't have any purpose. So that was what, that's, that's what the emotional bottom. Yeah.

Adriana
So you said when you went to your sponsor, and your sponsor summarized your accomplishments, and they didn't make any sense with the suicidal thoughts. So how do you think you moved from this thoughts to a better place? What, what was like the main factor that made you move?

Sid
Surrender. I accepted. So there's a, there's actually a line in our, the book that we use that says like, liquor was about a symptom. So, or you can substitute liquor with anything. Right. So say food, sometimes struggle with food too. Food was a symptom of the problem. We have to get down to causes and conditions. I didn't get how I got because of that. It's just a symbol. It's just a symptom. Right. I can put that anything there. Chocolate, anything people that struggle with. But I got the way I got because of certain things that happened. Right. So I never addressed the causes and conditions. And that line is exactly there. Liquor is about a symptom of our problem. We have to get down to causes and conditions. Why did I get the way I got and analyzing that? And I hadn't completely analyzed it. And he said that line to me. And I said, why? Yeah, I have some work to do again. So I went back and I did the work. And actually I got, I was just scared because I was getting married. This girl was moving across the world for me, not for me, but she was moving across the world. And how am I going to support her? How is she going to become a dentist here? Like all these things that I probably didn't like pushed away. Like, oh, just in the incitement, I came to me full fled like, oh, I've never worked as a dentist. Oh, my God, what if I'm not good? What if I like, yeah, like, I just have a little bit of experience. I've never earned any money, like proper money before, like, all these things got like flushing out. And so the way I handled it was like, it took a little bit of time and mostly like willingness. I prayed a lot. I did meetings every day I prayed. And actually what happened, this is the exact moment I remember it was, I actually had a car in Columbus, Ohio. And my mother was staying with me when I was moving my stuff out. And I had to drop my mom in Toronto. And I was looking at options to ship my car to Houston, Texas. And one, it was coming out kind of outrageous, and it was taking too much time. So I asked my parents, I said, if it's okay, let me drive you to Toronto. I'm going to drive from Toronto to Houston, Texas. And they're like, no way. And I was like, please just let me drive. I'll be safe. And I put out a whole plan. I said, I'm going to just drive eight hours a day. I'm going to stop twice. My cousin was living in I'll stay there with him and his wife. And then the next day morning, I'll go to the apartment. And then my dad said, why don't I come along with you? And then I'll fly back from Houston. I was like, no, trust me, please just let me be. And they, with resistance, they accepted and they knew that I was going to be safe and they trusted me somewhere. And so what I was doing was along the way, and this is cool, because I have a tale story to this. Along the way, I was listening to speaker tapes on YouTube, I would search up tapes on YouTube. And like tapes are old, like speakers in the program, and I would search them up. And they're inspiring stories. And I was going to meetings in different cities, which is really cool, because you get to meet lots of different people. And you got to see how things are in different cities. Along the way, I started off there, I went to Windsor and Chicago and Arkansas, Texarkana, it started all over the place. Along the way, I saw this tape on YouTube, called it's this is the title, best speaker you'll ever hear in your life. And I said, this is the guy, man, I'm going to listen to this guy. And it's going to change everything for me. Right. And so I put it on. It was amazing. Amazing one and a half, like it was an hour and 10 minutes. And I telling you, I was driving in the middle of nowhere. And I was sobbing, man, because the story was so powerful. And he was out of California, this guy named Matthew is out of California. And he explained grace, like I've never heard anybody explain. And he just kind of taught at the time, this was an old tape, like at the time, it was 10 years old already. And it was just cool. And then he had a whole bunch of other ones, which is very similar, because it's a story. And he just said, people invited him at different places all over the world. And he went and talked at meetings. And it was so cool. And I just remember, because his wife, like six years of sobriety around where I'm now, is like, he just walked home one day, and his wife just had a massive stroke. And so he talked about how he got through that, and like how he got through like raising his kids slowly, and all that kind of stuff. And I don't know what happened. But the chemistry inside me changed. And I heard that voice again, like, it's going to be okay. And I remember that all the fear was gone, like in that moment. And so fast forward now, two months ago, I was sitting at my friend's house in Squirrel Hill. Another member, he's actually a professor at Pitt, and him and his wife invited us for over for dinner. And he got sober during pandemic. So everything was zoom meetings. And he went to an international meeting. And he said, Hey, I have this friend, man, he's from California. And, and he started saying some stuff. And I said, I've heard this summer. And he started saying that he's like, man, he's, I talked to him every week, on the phone. And I said, is his name Matthew from California? He said, that's him. And I said, Well, I've been looking for this guy to talk to. And so he sent me his number. And I sent him a long message. Say my name is Sid. I'm from here. And I heard your tape like four years ago, that's when I was on the verge of suicide. And your tape is what changed every my whole future. And the guy got back to me the next day. And he said, Hey, man, I think he was in Copenhagen. He's like, I'm in Copenhagen and like a big convention. Yeah, program related. Yeah. He's like, I would love to hear from you. And, and his it was so crazy. Because the guy is I think 60 something now. He sounds like he's 30. He sounds exactly like he did on the tape. Because when I called him back the following week, we talked on the phone and he picked up and he's like, Hey, man, exactly like the tapes. I said, Wow, that was really cool. Yeah. And I said, man, and then he's kind of a part of my life. Now we text and all of his kids, right? They mentioned I remembered his story exactly like how he said it. I said, so how was Rory? And how's the show? He sent me pictures of all of his kids. And he's like, identified all of them. He talked about his wife. It was super cool. And he said, this is this is what we this is what we do, man, is that we don't go. This is not something that we go to. This is something we do. Yeah, you know, and so that was cool.

Adriana
Wow. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. Yeah. So any message you want to leave for our listeners?

Sid
Yeah, there was actually this thing. I'm going to read it. It's really cool. So I was actually listening to it today morning. And this is very, very, I thought it was cool. And this is just a small little passage that I can't remember. I didn't memorize it or anything. But let me try to find it on really quick. One second. Yeah, okay. So I just learned it on YouTube on Google. Okay, so this is from a passage from a member from many, many years ago, probably 50 years ago. And his story. So what happens is every five years, they publish a new book. The first 164 pages never changed since 1939, when they published it, the stories in the back change as a part of the program as a part of the program. So the first 164 pages is the program. And in the back, they have personal stories. So in the personal stories, every five years, or 10 years on the new edition comes out, people can submit stories and they can submit like they can nominate people. And they write the for the store, their story. They have to summarize in about three to four pages, it can be a long one. And if they get selected, they put their story. So actually, me and another guy in the program are actually working on my sponsor story, because he had celebrated 50 years. So we think he deserves to get a story in the book. And especially because he had continuous right. That was one thing. But so this guy's story was from a long old timer back in the day. And I thought that just the end passage of a story was great. And this is the last passage: “The last 15 years of my life have been rich and meaningful. I've had my share of problems, heartaches and disappointments because that is life. But also I have known a great deal of joy and, and a peace that is the handmaiden of an inner freedom. I have the wealth of friends, and with my friends, and with my recovery friends and unusual quality of fellowship. For to these people, I am truly related. First, though, mutual pain and despair, and later through mutual objectives and newfound faith and hope. And as years go by, working towards sharing our experiences with one another, and also sharing a mutual trust, understanding and love without strings without obligation, we acquire relationships that are unique and priceless. There is no more aloneness with that awful ache so deep in the heart of every alcoholic that nothing before could ever reach it. That ache is gone and never need return again. Now there is a sense of belonging and of being wanted and needed and loved. In return for a bottle and a hangover, we've been given the key. We've been given the keys of the kingdom.”

Adriana
Wow.

Sid
Yeah, that's it.

Karthik
Your banner of welcome home makes so much sense to me now.

Sid
So that was it. Thank you.

Adriana
Yeah. Thank you so much. Very nice. It was really nice to share your last day of residency in our podcast. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Sid
Now I can go to work. Yeah. Thank you.

Music
♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪