Susan
Welcome to Who We Are Inside, a Cupid podcast. This is part two of a two-part series where we are talking to Todd Wysong, who is the co-founder of the Positive Painting Project. I want to offer again a trigger warning for those for whom listening to a conversation about major depressive disorder and suicide is not helpful. Please skip this episode and skip part one of this series. They will not serve you. Be kind to yourself, always. So in part one, we met Katie and learned the origin of the Positive Painting Project. In part two, we really focus on the stigma of mental health. What Gen Z is getting right, what we continue to get wrong, and what we all can do to shift how we think about mental health and better support ourselves and one another.

Susan
I'm curious, you know, you have six phrases that you use. Why did you choose, or why would you like to talk about, it's okay to not be okay today?

Todd
That one is, I think, very central to the theme of this entire project. It's the idea of, it goes from everything from, it's okay to have mental health struggles. It's okay to admit that you're having struggles. Talking to, telling someone that you're struggling with mental health isn't just, you're not just dumping your problems on them. You're also telling them that you're someone they can talk to about their problems. And to get back to one of your earlier questions, when we have these festivals and things, everybody has a story. Everyone has a story. They do, you just don't hear about it. And so when we're doing these public events, or even the ones at the schools, we've had teachers, some students want to, you know, and they, you know, because they know that you're someone who's involved in this and everyone is, all of a sudden, like, you know, the veil comes down and they feel that much more comfortable to talk about mental health, about their struggles that they're having or about, you know, their child, their cousin, whoever, they know that they are struggling. The other part of it is, to get back to what I was saying before, we're here, you know, it's three years since we lost Katie. And we, you know, a lot of people don't want to bring up the names of people that you lost tragically that way. And my, you know, I've had my own family even say, well, if you're having, you know, if you're otherwise having a good day, I don't want to make you sad. And my answer is, I'm always sad. I'm just better at hiding it some days than others. And, but hearing her name never makes me sad. Hearing her name, hearing people talk about her still is a huge, huge part. And I don't think, I mean, and I get it. I, you know, I mean, I was one of those people before, like, I'm not going to bring up something uncomfortable around this person. It's rude. It's not rude. People love to hear the names of their lost ones, that you remember them, that you remember stories about them. People absolutely love that.

John
I like that you're talking about what people can do, who, you know, who are trying to help. And I wonder, I mean, I know sometimes when I know somebody else is hurting, sometimes I don't know what to say. And I wondered if you wanted to expand on that, maybe talk specifically about what people can do.

Todd
It's not easy. You know, it's not an easy subject to bring up. But honestly, the best thing you can do if you know someone who's struggling or anyone who's going through a hard thing is to just let them know that you're there if they want to talk. Sometimes they might not want to, and that's okay too. But just to be able to, whether figuratively or physically, sit beside them and, you know, let them know that you're there anytime they want to talk about this. It's, again, it's one of those things that, you know, I think people don't want to bring up. They don't want to, you know, admit that they have their own struggles. But I feel like it's just, it's crucial to these people. I will mention, as far as looking for help online for things like that, the AFSP is American Foundation for Suicide Prevention is fantastic, especially our local chapter here in this area is just absolutely wonderful. They are always looking for volunteers. Anytime I talk to anyone who has a, whether it's a child or they themselves are struggling as an adult, I always recommend because that sort of volunteer activity can be actually very therapeutic to be able to, and not only that, but you're surrounding yourself with this community of people who get it. And so it's really helpful. They have a sort of a branch website and they've had some commercials, maybe you saw them a couple of years ago called Seize the Awkward. And it's a wonderful program for teens, especially, but I mean, you go onto their website, they have, there's actual, you know, what if my friend is struggling? What if my friend is going through a bad breakup? Like they have actual points, pointers, you know, ways to start a conversation with someone that you think has been a little off and you want to talk to them. You know, not just, you know, what to do if you're struggling, but as like you asked, what to do to help a friend, the best way to be able to do that. And so, I mean, I would absolutely recommend that, you know, even for adults is to, you know, just, it's once you start reading that stuff, it's like a light bulb finally goes on. I think at some point where you realize like, oh, I get it. They, you know what I mean? This isn't, you know, I'm not making them sadder by talking about this.

Adriana
I have read before when I was trying to learn how to manage my emotions, I have lost a neighbor and I have lost a very good friend's daughter. And when I was reading like what I could do to not really help support be there for them, I realized that sometimes when you want to do something really, really to show your support and you're not comfortable with it, you need to talk about it. The more you talk about it, the less awkward it's going to be. So, when I was looking for ways to show my support, one, and I go back to what you said, you love when people talk about Katie. And one of the recommendations was to send a birthday card every birthday of that person. And I did that and they really appreciated it. So, I don't know if you have any other tips that you could share with our listeners, something that doesn't take a lot of emotional toll, but you can still be there for the person.

Todd
Stuff that we haven't already discussed. They can, I mean, the birthday card is a great idea. I remember another thing is to, you know, donations, small, even small donations in their name to say the AFSP or to, you know, donations that you think that person would have been, you know, passionate about. We got a card not long after we lost Katie and it was pretty much anonymous. It was another family who had lost their child 12, 13 years prior. And reaching out to us just to say, you know, we understand how hard it is, what you're going through right now. Now their struggle is to just try to remember what their loved one's voice sounded like. I mean, what their laugh sounded like, what, you know, little things, you know, their favorite food was. But we're fortunate enough in this day and age to have, you know, grown up with, you know, like a lot of our children have grown up with, there's no shortage of video or pictures of them, especially the ones they've taken themselves. So that part's nice. But the, but it's never enough. You know, it was after, after we lost Katie, she had a journal and she wrote some stuff in there, but it wasn't until I really started going through her sketchbooks and the ones that she had hidden under her bed, where we really noticed how, how bad she was struggling. And, you know, with, it was, again, that was her preferred method of expression. And it was these drawings that were particularly impactful and just, and heartbreaking to know that they were struggling that much. And yeah, she said, I feel like my depression's coming back and I need some, you know, and, and we, you know, we had her, her medicine bumped up and, and we had her set up to go start seeing her therapist again. It was COVID, it was hard to get someone. So it was going to be another couple of weeks before we could get her into a therapist. And it was, I believe just a perfect storm of events coming together for her. And, and unfortunately it was something she couldn't see her way out of the other side of.

Susan
I am, I have two, two things I want to, I want to ask. And I'm going to start, I think with the harder one first. So I'm a parent and I have two children and my youngest was in the NICU for a very long time. And we were afraid that we were going to lose him a couple of times. I remember like not being able to like finish his nursery because I just bear the idea of it being done and him not coming home. And to get back to Adriana and John, your question about what support looks like. I think it, it, there's no like one perfect thing. I remember that I call her Miss Adrian. I don't know where it came from, but the owner of Spark Books in Aspinwall sent me like a care package that had like a tide pen and some calm tea. And I think whatever the, the action is that you do, it's this idea of I'm in your corner. You know, even if you don't see me every day, like I'm here, I'm rooting for you, whatever I'm thinking about you. And that like was to me, like what was got, what got me through those moments was just knowing that I had all of these people in, in our corner, you know, rooting for me, rooting for, for B. And, you know, to your point about the, the community, I mean, the number of, of families who, you know, expressed their own experiences with the NICU and all of the stories that, you know, people we'd known for years who you just don't, you had no that they had gone through these things is, is so powerful. And, you know, I think about, there were a couple of times where we almost missed things that, that B had been diagnosed with and the amount of fight that I had to do to get him what he needed in as close of a time as, as I could, which was never soon enough. So I can't, I can't imagine, you know, what it was like in those weeks when, you know, she said, I think it's back and you're scrambling amidst a pandemic to get her resources that weren't available. And that feeling of like, it wasn't enough. I just, I have no words.

Todd
It's crippling, you know, and to, to know that when you lose someone that way, that they, and it's what depression does. It convinces you that somehow your loved ones and your friends would somehow be better off if you were no longer here. And to know that that's how they spent their final moments is just absolutely devastating. And as a father who, you know, I think any father, you know, you feel it's part of your job is to be able to protect your kids and how do you protect them from themselves? You know, how do you protect them from this disease that's inside of them? You know, we talk a lot about how serious cancer is and and not that it isn't by any means, but depression and anxiety issues are just so under appreciated. I don't know if it's the right word, but it can be just as fatal. And unlike cancer or these other diseases, you can't scan someone with an MRI to see how bad it is. You can't, you can't do an x-ray to see if the drugs they're on are working and making it go away. All you're relying on is this person telling you how they feel. And we're human beings where, you know, one day you might be feeling good. And the next day you're feeling so terrible that you want to take your own life. And so it's, it's something that we, especially from the medical side of things, just have a long, long way to go still. And to segue for one second though, these kids in the high school right now, we've had kids reach out. One of them had a, this is just in the last year, over the summer, one girl had a lemonade stand and donated half of what she made that weekend to the Positive Painting Project. We had another one who sold ice cream sandwiches. We didn't ask for any of this. They just reached out after it was done, made ice cream sandwiches and sold them and made a donation. This other little girl, Cakes for Care, where she made all these, I don't want to say little girl, she's in high school, but Cakes for Care, she made these baked goods and had like a bake sale at high school during the day and donated to the project. And these kids, I keep saying they're like, you know, as much as, as down as I get about maybe how the state of things right now, this Gen Z, I swear they're going to save the world. It just, I don't know what you were doing when you were in high school, but it wasn't that for me. I wasn't holding bake sales and lemonade stands and donating stuff to charity. I, you know, I wish I was, and I'm sure my parents wish I was, but it's just a very different mentality right now. And they are all much more open to the idea of mental health. And I think it's like our generation of parents also, we're the ones making the appointments for them. So we can get ourselves a little bit of a pat on the back for also being open to mental health and, you know, and dealing with our own parents saying, you know, with the older attitudes of saying, oh, what's wrong with them? Why are they going to therapy? And that sort of stuff. I feel like it took, you know, me experiencing it myself to really start to understand how bad it is. And, you know, there's, you know, I feel like the natural reaction is, how can you feel sad? Look at all these wonderful things. And that has nothing to do with it. It's a brain chemistry thing more often than not. What's, what I never understood, and it always, to me, felt like it was something that you were like born with. You know, you just, your brain chemistry is a little off. You don't make enough serotonin, that sort of stuff. But for, I mean, I mean, I guess some people would say, well, duh, but the, but after losing my daughter to have a life event actually cause depression in you, like where I can't go off my several times. And it's just, and it's not even, you know, the, the, the harmful feelings or anything that, that feelings of, of, of hurting yourself or anything like that. It's most of it's most of those feelings, I think, in a lot of people are dealing with what you call more passive suicide, where they're not looking to do something like that. But if something were to happen, it wouldn't be the worst thing. And, but lose my train of thought.

John
Yeah, take your time. No, you're fine.

Todd
So I was talking about…

Susan
You're talking about being born with a, a chemistry imbalance versus having a life event, right? Like create that chemistry.

Todd
Exactly. Yeah. And then, but to have a life event actually, you know, cause a chemical imbalance in your brain to where now you need medicine to help, you know, stay afloat is just, I don't want to say insane because it's a poor, poor context, but it is, it is it is completely out of this world to me that you know, cause I always felt that it didn't like always, you know, that you were just, it was something you were born with. It was something that, you know maybe, you know, through puberty things, you know got difficult for you and, you know, your brain chemistry is off a little bit, but to your point about understanding it, I, I feel like it honestly took me to be in that spot to really understand it. And, and I still don't pretend that I understood it to the level that she did or struggled to the level that she did. My wife has her own anxiety and depression, depression issues as well. And I, I hope she would agree that I understand it a lot more now than I did before. And cause like you said, it's easy to internalize it or to just, you know, break it down to just this one circumstance. And you know, where meanwhile, there's so much more at play going on there with trauma and everything from someone's background to just their natural brain chemistry.

John
And how can we, like, how can people, how can, I guess, like, when I look back, right, I think, okay, what could I have done differently? Could I have been more understanding? So I guess I'm wondering what are your thoughts for people who might know someone who's depressed or might think, oh, all they have to do is just go get therapy, take some medicine and they'll be okay.

Todd
Right. I mean, not all medicines work. And I've been lucky to have found a couple that have worked and I don't love the side effects. So it, you know, it, everything's, you know, it ends up being a trade-off. Everything is. So, but it's again, just being there for someone and just trying to understand without judgment that they are struggling. And I think a huge part of it is, you know, as a society to honestly look at it more of a disease than it is, you know, just, I don't know what they call it, mental health issues or, you know, that sort of thing. And yes, it can be helped. Sometimes you have better days. Sometimes there are things that, you know, when I'm short on sleep, I'm going to have a much more, much worse day than if I were, you know, care of myself better the previous couple of days. And so I think a lot of people see that and they see people like on their good days and they don't understand why they're having the bad days. And and it's, I don't have an answer. It's very difficult to put yourself in the place of that person who is struggling. And it's something that I struggle with now because I, you know, I constantly, you know, as a parent, when you lose a child, the way, especially the way we lost Katie, that's all you do the rest of your life is sit around and second guess the decisions you made, the things you did. Every single time I ever yelled at her about something, you know, I beat myself up about, oh, I should have handled this differently. I should have handled that differently. And you're plagued with that for the rest of your life. And you have to learn to physically, you know, make yourself stop thinking these things and say, okay, you have to stop. You know, you can't go down this rabbit hole of just beating yourself up for the next two hours. And, you know, and it interrupts your sleep and all of these things. And then, you know, and then you end up the next day you go to work and now you didn't get enough sleep and it compounds on itself. It's what when you really start looking at all of the symptoms of someone dealing with depression, anxiety, mental health disorders, it's not hard to look at it as a disease.

Susan
I might offer one phrase that can be really helpful if you don't know what to say or you don't know how to support someone. And I learned this actually in like a parenting podcast class because I'm like, I don't know how to do this. Maybe there's someone else can teach me. And the phrase is, I believe you. And the beauty of I believe you is that you don't have to understand. You don't have to agree. You don't have to accept. You just have to believe them. And I think that that can be so powerful because it says like, I see you. I might not really get what you're going through right now or how bad it is or what that looks like inside your head. But I believe that whatever you're going through, what you're telling me is true. I think what people often do is what you were talking about, this sort of dismissive, you know, oh, how can you feel X? You have look at your life, look at your friends, you know. And that dismissal basically says like, you're wrong about yourself. You don't even know about yourself. And that is so you just, I remember feeling that way. And you just like want to curl up into a ball and just disappear because you're just like, no one is seeing me right now the way I need them to see me. So I would offer I believe you as a really, a really nice kind of short way to help people.

Todd
I like what you said. I believe you. Another one that she says a lot is instead of, you tend to, when you see someone who's struggling with their mental health, what's wrong with you? And people say it all the time. What is wrong with you? But to just take that out of your vocabulary and instead, at least even in your own mind, ask the question, what happened to you? And to look at things more through that lens of, you know, something happened to them to cause this behavior, you know, all behavior has meaning. So, and something happened to them to cause that. Something happened to them to react to something that, you know, you think was, you know, completely non-consequential and they reacted to it, you know, differently. And there's a reason behind it. And which brings you all the way back to the same thing. It's just understanding. And it's feeling understood and feeling heard and feeling seen instead of just being dismissed when you're going through these struggles.

Adriana
At this time of this recording, it is May, which is Mental Health Awareness Month. So, I want to put together two topics that we had a brief discussion. One, you were talking about the new generation, how far they can go. And going a little bit to the May that is Mental Awareness, do you think this generation is more aware because they are more open or because we are, as educators, doing a better job or a combination?

Todd
I don't want to cheat and say both, but I really do think it's a team effort. You know, it's not just, yes, you know, these kids are a lot more open to talking about mental health. But a lot of that is, you know, what you're surrounded by. I mean, we remember, you know, times when it was different. And I can't say that if things were like that, you know, for if things were like now, like they were for us, that, you know, we wouldn't have maybe reacted the same way or been better about it. And that's not to say it's anyone's fault. It's just that's just how we evolve as a society. And, you know, this is one of those things that, thank goodness, people are paying more attention to.

Susan
I really like the analogy of cancer, because I feel like that is the feeling people should get when we think about mental health diseases, is that, and, you know, because cancer, one type of cancer can manifest very differently in different people. Some people can respond to a treatment in a really great way, and others can not respond at all to the same type of cancer, and we're constantly learning about new ways to treat, and sometimes not cure, but manage. I think that's the other part, is that, you know, from what I've learned, is that you don't ever get cured. You can't be treated of a mental health disease. It is a chronic illness that you live with for your whole life, and it's about how do we manage this well? And I love that you, you know, you brought up the parents who lose their children for other diseases, and that your experience is the same in many ways, and yet, I feel like in some ways, potentially robbed of some of that, I don't want to say pity, but empathy, because of the stigma of how you lost Katie. And I think that that's something else we can do for folks who are survivors, is to really acknowledge that this is a disease, that as a parent, you know, you and Alyssa did everything you could to save your daughter from a horrible disease, everything you could, and I think that that's something that probably, like, needs to be repeated, either every day or once a week, because I think as parents, we always are thinking about what could I have done better? And, you know, it is like, just constantly in your head about anything, but particularly about something, you know, so tough, and I just, I really appreciate that comparison, because I think it is, it's just beautiful, and hopefully will provide some kind of context and imagery around how we should be thinking about mental health. It is a cancer. We should be treating it like that.

Todd
To your point, there are way too many people who just try to handle mental health issues on their own, and just struggle through it, and, you know, some days I have good days, some days I have bad days. Another thing I'll mention, it just popped into my head while you were speaking, but, you know, thinking back, and, you know, when you have a child, or a friend, whoever, basically the difference between, from my understanding, the difference, I'm not a mental health professional, but the difference, the big difference between, you know, being diagnosed with depression, and major depressive disorder, comes down to answering one question, do you have a method? Do you have a plan on how you'll carry this out? And that's when you kind of get put into a different category of, all right, this is a big deal. And it doesn't often change per person from what they say, from understanding, and the first time we took Katie to the STAR Clinic, it was hanging, and that's how we lost her two years later. And it's important to recognize that, and I'm not saying that one is less deadly than the other in the end, but it's something I never considered while we were, you know, dealing with her, and trying to do everything for her, is how quickly that plan takes their life, versus maybe someone who was leaning towards carbon monoxide poisoning, or leaning towards pills, or cutting their wrists. Those things take a little bit more time, and I'm not downplaying them in any way, they're just as serious, but it's worth considering, if your child is considering hanging themself, or gunshot, obviously you would keep guns away from them to begin with, but if that is their method, three minutes without oxygen and you're dead. And it's certainly something that should be considered, and I feel like it's something that requires, should have required on my part, a little more babysitting, and that's just one of the things I beat myself up about all the time, in having lost her, but, and again, you can only watch someone so many, you know, so many minutes of the day, let alone when they're a teenager, but it's not something I've heard before, but something that's, I guess, bothered me since we lost her, is something that I feel like should be talked about at least. The method matters.

Susan
Thank you so much for sharing that. That is not something I'd ever heard before, and I'm not a mental health professional, but I'm a health professional, and I'm gonna carry that on and make sure that people are aware of that. I'd like to, we've been talking a lot about a lot of like really heavy stuff, and you mentioned earlier about how much you enjoy thinking about Katie and hearing her name and all of these things, and it reminded me of this idea that kind of joy and grief are actually kind of two sides of the same coin, that you really can't have true grief without true joy, and while we've been focusing a lot on the grief side, I wanna flip it over to the joy side for just a moment. I saw this beautiful picture on your website of Katie in a sunflower field. She has like a sunflower in her hair, and I was wondering if you could just share where that picture was taken, the story behind that picture.

HOST
Yeah, we went out, it was around October, and we went out to do some apple picking, and the girls were with Alyssa and I, and they had a big sunflower field out there too, and sunflowers were always Katie's favorite. That's why I have them on my arm now. But they were always her favorite, and we'd be down at the arts festival, and she bought, with her own money, she bought artwork that had sunflowers on it. It was just something that she was drawn to, and so we were looking for an activity, something to do that day, and our friend lived out in the South Hills. I don't remember the name of the farm we were at, but they had apple picking out there, and then there were also sunflowers that you could pick as well, so that's where those pictures came from.

Susan
Thank you for sharing.

John
Thank you. I think that's a big thing, is that there is somebody who's living a life. There are people who care, and there's joy in that. There's joy surrounding that person, and hopefully people can understand that. When that joy is gone, people get sad, and I think that's what we're talking about now, right? There's joy, there's sadness, and...

Todd
And like you said, it's like you said, two sides of the same coin. It's hard to, and it is, it's hard to appreciate one if you've never had the other, or vice versa. I think what brings joy is experiencing grief as well, and it certainly moves the bar a little bit. We've had conversations in the support groups that we visit and things, and people talk about how I just, I feel more flat now. Stuff that used to get me all, I used to get worked up about and stuff. I just don't, I said, well, your bar has, your bar for what's worth getting upset about has dramatically moved. But with that said, it's exhausting being okay all day long when you go to work, when you're dealing with trauma and grief, and it takes its toll. And sometimes some people come home and just collapse and go to sleep, and some people get cranky, and it's hard to be okay for everyone else all day long. So it can take its toll as well. So, which goes back to the same thing. What happened to you?

Susan
Right, right. Well, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your story and Katie's story, and for doing this incredible work. I mean, it's beautiful, like visually, emotionally. I would almost argue spiritually. It just, you are making, you and your wife and Katie and this organization is making the world a better place, period. And we are so grateful that you are here in our community and that you decided to come and talk to us today.

Todd
I could talk about her all day. Thank you. I love talking about Katie.

Susan
What's another, give us one more story.

Todd
Oh boy, let me think of a good one. I can't believe I'm drawing a blank.

Susan
That's okay. That's okay.

Todd
Oh boy. No matter what I tell, there's gonna be one when I'm driving home saying, ah, why did you do that?

John
What's a good one for people to understand who she was?

Adriana
Maybe when she was little.

Todd
Yeah, well, I'll tell this. After we lost her, going through all the pictures and things like that that I have of her, and it's never enough. And so then just about a year ago, I ended up in, you know, Google Photos backs up your phone. And I had gone, you know, we had, I'd taken all the pictures off of her phone, but I hadn't actually logged into her Google Photos account and seen all the ones that were on there before that, you know, that she had uploaded and then deleted from her phone. And so I came across all these videos, these little TikToks and stuff that she made, and which was just wonderful to be able to sit there and go through. It would have, you know, I'd have been a mess two years prior. It's almost better that I found them, you know, when I did. And, but yeah, like she had a bedroom and then we're a blended family. So we have, Alyssa has two daughters, Emma and Ava, and I have a son, Adam. And then we had Katie, who was the youngest. And so Ava and Katie had rooms next to each other, but one of the videos was Katie sitting there saying, she goes, okay, so my sister's alarm's been going off in her room for the last 10 minutes. So we're going to go see if she's okay. And then her going in and waking Ava up. And Ava had no idea. I just sent her the video recently. And she's like, why did she do me like that? Because she had, I guess she put it on TikTok. But she was, she was, she had a really good sense of humor. It was more dry, but, and she was just people who, whether you have siblings or whether you have your own kids, you know what I mean when I say the good ones. And she was, she was the good one. The one who always, you know, didn't argue with you when you told her what to do. The one who you always, you know, or you would probably take advantage of it and let the other kids argue with you when you want someone to unload the dishwasher and things. And never got in trouble for anything. And, you know, it was the last person that I ever thought was depressed, but that's what happens. That's, it happens more often than not when you see, you know, celebrities who have died by suicide and it's, a lot of times it's a very different face than what we would expect the people that are struggling.

John
I guess, I think you're helping a lot of people. Hopefully this help, this podcast helps a lot of people.

Todd
I can't imagine it doesn't. This is wonderful that this exists. And, you know, you guys are doing an amazing thing here. Just the idea of getting out here and talking and, you know, having a place for people to talk about these issues. It's really, really important work you guys are doing. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Music
♪ I still have stories to tell ♪ ♪ I feel ♪ ♪ I still have stories to tell ♪